Intruder 1400 Clutch Slipping

[Fred]

Yep, somebody do what Fred asks and tell us what the lever pull actually with Designer springs is so we can make an objective comparison with stock.

I have carpal tunnel issues, and I'm a professional musician too so have to look after my tendons, I don't have any use for a clutch which is significantly heavier than stock.

It would be nice to have the clutch weight quantified rather than guessed at.

Thats what I was expecting. If you don't have a kitchen scale big enough use a bathroom scale by putting apiece of wood across it and tie a rope around the wood that hooks on the the lever then pull the bottom of the scale towards you, or push it and have some one read it. I hav'nt done that but it should work if the digital scale reads under 2 kilo's. Surely you guys got an Angling scale ( fishing)

[Herb]

Yep, somebody do what Fred asks and tell us what the lever pull actually with Designer springs is so we can make an objective comparison with stock.

I have carpal tunnel issues, and I'm a professional musician too so have to look after my tendons, I don't have any use for a clutch which is significantly heavier than stock.

It would be nice to have the clutch weight quantified rather than guessed at.

Thats what I was expecting. If you don't have a kitchen scale big enough use a bathroom scale by putting apiece of wood across it and tie a rope around the wood that hooks on the the lever then pull the bottom of the scale towards you, or push it and have some one read it. I hav'nt done that but it should work if the digital scale reads under 2 kilo's. Surely you guys got an Angling scale ( fishing)

I just tried the bathroom scale, mine is digital. Trouble is that I had to be really careful of not pushing the lever up or down at the same time. I had readings as high as 25lbs but finally was able to get 3 in a row that were within a tenth of a lb of each other. They were 7.4, 7.6 and 7.5, with the lever pushed in about halfway. So, I think I can safely say it is 7.6, or less.

Keep in mind that the Designer springs I have already have over 200,000 miles on them. Mine are not a real good example of what new ones would be like, and I don't have any idea what a new set of stock springs would read. For dam sure measuring stock springs that are already slipping will not tell us anything. What would be nice would be to install a new set, measure right after install, ride for 2 days, measure again, then install Designer's springs and do the same measurements.

I do know that the first few times I used them they did feel stronger, but then the old springs were so totally shot that I couldn't accelerate hard in any gear. Even new stock springs would have felt quite a bit stiffer than my worn out ones.

While I can appreciate factors like carpel tunnel (I have a problem with what the doc says is tennis elbow, when it acts up pulling in the clutch does hurt like hell), I would rather have a stiffer clutch than a slipping clutch. What I do know is that the new stock springs, which I had installed many times, never locked up the clutch like Designer's springs do. On top of that the stock springs will allow the clutch to start slipping, bad enough to be really noticeable, within 10-13 thousand miles. At least that was my experience in 154,000 miles in the 87 and again in the first 35,000 on the 99. Now if someone only rides 5,000 miles a year, installing new springs every 2-4 years is probably not a big deal. However if you ride like I always have, 20-30,000 miles a year, changing springs, and fighting a slipping clutch, twice a year is a major pain in the ass.

[Fred]

Your clutch is not dis engaged at --'about half way'. 7 1/4 pounds to push it to the handle bar is what I posted, not just half way.

I don't understand why half way could considered helpfull unless you are suggesting half way is half of what it is.

Are you saying it is twice 7.5 pounds 15 pound pull? 7 Kilo?

[Herb]

Your clutch is not dis engaged at --'about half way'. 7 1/4 pounds to push it to the handle bar is what I posted, not just half way.

I don't understand why half way could considered helpfull unless you are suggesting half way is half of what it is.

Are you saying it is twice 7.5 pounds 15 pound pull? 7 Kilo?

Pushing it all the way to the grip it would be impossible to tell if I were pushing against the grip or the clutch. And my clutch actually disengages right at the halfway point.

Maybe, if I had a smaller scale I would be able to get it closer to the grip, but I really don't believe it would be that much different. Hydraulic clutches are not like cable clutches, they don't add that much more force for the farther you pull the lever. That is one of the main reasons for going to the hydraulic system, much smoother and easier to use. Basic hydraulic theory.

[Fred]

The slave cylinder is right on the end of the push rod, it is straight push. This rod pushes the clutch pressure plate outwards. As the springs compress the pressure needed increase.

A cable can use over center leverage, even the lever itself by its own design arcs in such a way as to increase leverage along the travel.

[Herb]

The slave cylinder is right on the end of the push rod, it is straight push. This rod pushes the clutch pressure plate outwards. As the springs compress the pressure needed increase.

A cable can use over center leverage, even the lever itself by its own design arcs in such a way as to increase leverage along the travel.

Not well versed on hydraulic theory, eh.

[Fred]

What hydraulic witchery are you referring to. I cant wait to hear this.

[Boonie2]

Just curious Fred , Do you have nothing better to do with your time than be annoying ? I've noticed that about you in more than a few posts..
Life is too short for all the BS , know what I mean ?

[Herb]

What hydraulic witchery are you referring to. I cant wait to hear this.

Hydraulic pressure is not a linear progression like a cable system. Once pressure is built up, increase in movement of the pressure cylinder only results in movement of the slave cylinder, with not much increase in the pressure applied.

If the springs are correctly wound, the pressure from them does not increase very much upon the increase in distance.

One of the reasons that Designer's springs work so well is that they have decent pressure when the clutch is engaged, unlike the stock springs. That DOES NOT mean that they have to be so tightly wound that the pressure increases a lot as they are compressed.

Believe it or not, and you probably won't, because you do not understand the theory, it is possible to wind springs to maintain almost the same pressure throughout the stroke of the spring.

[Fred]

Service manager of UAE for Renault. Transport manager of Sealand shipping Dubai. Teacher of automobile technology at British Aerospace UK.

AMI IRTE Mech E F tech.

I did not know that Herb. Maybe I drink too much . Maybe I need a God. But further instruction on mechanical engineering No--

Are you trying to describe progressive springs for controllable engagement.
For perfect controllable engagement diaphragm springs are used such as on a car with an even over center feel meaning at a point the clutch opens the spring pressure drops to almost nothing. Coiled springs do not work as well as that. High frequency springs can be coiled tighter at one end such as fork springs but thats for another reason

But you did not mention this you said it was hydraulics.

[Herb]

Service manager of UAE for Renault. Transport manager of Sealand shipping Dubai. Teacher of automobile technology at British Aerospace UK.

AMI IRTE Mech E F tech.

I did not know that Herb. Maybe I drink too much . Maybe I need a God. But further instruction on mechanical engineering No--

Are you trying to describe progressive springs for controllable engagement.
For perfect controllable engagement diaphragm springs are used such as on a car with an even over center feel meaning at a point the clutch opens the spring pressure drops to almost nothing. Coiled springs do not work as well as that. High frequency springs can be coiled tighter at one end such as fork springs but thats for another reason

But you did not mention this you said it was hydraulics.

Yep, you drink too much. Or you would have known what I was talking about when I posted the first post.

Either that or you are just being an ass.

[Fred]

Service manager of UAE for Renault. Transport manager of Sealand shipping Dubai. Teacher of automobile technology at British Aerospace UK.

AMI IRTE Mech E F tech.

I did not know that Herb. Maybe I drink too much . Maybe I need a God. But further instruction on mechanical engineering No--

Are you trying to describe progressive springs for controllable engagement.
For perfect controllable engagement diaphragm springs are used such as on a car with an even over center feel meaning at a point the clutch opens the spring pressure drops to almost nothing. Coiled springs do not work as well as that. High frequency springs can be coiled tighter at one end such as fork springs but thats for another reason

But you did not mention this you said it was hydraulics.

Yep, you drink too much. Or you would have known what I was talking about when I posted the first post.

Either that or you are just being an ass.

No Herb you are wriggling now. A force is pushed by a force wether its hydraulic --cable or a stick. An Ass is a donkey crossed with a Mule.

I got 7 1/4 pound,-- Is there any one else would like to continue.

[Herb]

Service manager of UAE for Renault. Transport manager of Sealand shipping Dubai. Teacher of automobile technology at British Aerospace UK.

AMI IRTE Mech E F tech.

I did not know that Herb. Maybe I drink too much . Maybe I need a God. But further instruction on mechanical engineering No--

Are you trying to describe progressive springs for controllable engagement.
For perfect controllable engagement diaphragm springs are used such as on a car with an even over center feel meaning at a point the clutch opens the spring pressure drops to almost nothing. Coiled springs do not work as well as that. High frequency springs can be coiled tighter at one end such as fork springs but thats for another reason

But you did not mention this you said it was hydraulics.

Yep, you drink too much. Or you would have known what I was talking about when I posted the first post.

Either that or you are just being an ass.

No Herb you are wriggling now. A force is pushed by a force wether its hydraulic --cable or a stick. An Ass is a donkey crossed with a Mule.

I got 7 1/4 pound,-- Is there any one else would like to continue.

There is a reason they are using hydraulic instead of cable. The mechanical advantage us huge compared to a cable.

Again, once the pressure is built up, the increase in distance makes minimal difference in the force required. basic hydraulics.

[rsmiley0690]

I installed the Designer springs in my 1995 Intruder VS1400. What a difference!! All the slipping I knew was there is gone and a lot I didn't know is gone. The bike vibrates less and the power increase is amazing. Thank you Ed, it is like riding a totally different bike!

Russ

[Fred]

There is a reason they are using hydraulic instead of cable. The mechanical advantage us huge compared to a cable.

Again, once the pressure is built up, the increase in distance makes minimal difference in the force required. basic hydraulics.

May I politely say Bollocks

Force required = force needed no magic God fluid, its the same even if you pull it with a cable or push oil down a pipe or push it with a stick.

You are maybe getting confused the the hydraulic ratio of say a 2 inch piston to a 4 inch with give twice the power but half the travel. This is EXACTLY they same as leverage of say 2:1.

[Herb]

There is a reason they are using hydraulic instead of cable. The mechanical advantage us huge compared to a cable.

Again, once the pressure is built up, the increase in distance makes minimal difference in the force required. basic hydraulics.

May I politely say Bollocks

Force required = force needed no magic God fluid, its the same even if you pull it with a cable or push oil down a pipe or push it with a stick.

You are maybe getting confused the the hydraulic ratio of say a 2 inch piston to a 4 inch with give twice the power but half the travel. This is EXACTLY they same as leverage of say 2:1.

Once the pressure required to do a job is reached, more movement on the handle only pushes the fluid through the line, moving the parts on the other end.

You don't believe me, so piss off. Take a course on hydraulics.

[Fred]

Another construction worker knows every thing, from caulking guns to hydraulics. Jack of all master of none.

Hydraulics has no benefit as you so politely say except for ease of routing a simple pipe for which oil to flow.

No links to this magic god particle of hydraulic engineering advantage.

Harleys have not used your so called advantage of hydraulic principle and neither has many. Telling me to piss of still does not change that.

[Herb]

Another construction worker knows every thing, from caulking guns to hydraulics. Jack of all master of none.

Hydraulics has no benefit as you so politely say except for ease of routing a simple pipe for which oil to flow.

No links to this magic god particle of hydraulic engineering advantage.

Harleys have not used your so called advantage of hydraulic principle and neither has many. Telling me to piss of still does not change that.

Well. I may not know much, but what I do know is that with my brand new scale the force on the clutch lever is 7.4 as soon as it starts taking up, 7.6 at halfway and 7.6 just before it touches the hand grip.

Just ran it 6 times and it was within 0.1 lb each time.

So...

[DGPLINY]

I plan on treating myself for Christmas and buy the Designer Springs for my 1992 Intruder VS 1400 and make it a winter project.
My question is ,should I replace the clutch since I am in there already,she only has 14,000 miles on her.I would go with a Bartlett Clutch Plate kit off Amazon 145$ and a new gasket.No issues with the clutch,just the lag when really rolling on the throttle.
I would appreciate any info,THXS.

[Herb]

I plan on treating myself for Christmas and buy the Designer Springs for my 1992 Intruder VS 1400 and make it a winter project.
My question is ,should I replace the clutch since I am in there already,she only has 14,000 miles on her.I would go with a Bartlett Clutch Plate kit off Amazon 145$ and a new gasket.No issues with the clutch,just the lag when really rolling on the throttle.
I would appreciate any info,THXS.

Probably no need to replace the plates. At 135,000 miles my stock plates were still well above the minimum thickness. I had put Designer's springs in at 35,000 miles. I had already gone through 2 sets of stock springs and fought the slipping clutch for about half the miles I had on it.

I put almost 200,000 miles on the original engine and when I changed it out for a used engine I swapped the springs into the new engine. Didn't bother to check the plates in either engine, but the original clutch was not slipping.