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Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:04 am
by jhorgan24
Hi all,
Been working on getting my VS800 road worthy again after only riding it a tiny bit since 2019. Just for context, I had it running a few weeks ago and even took it around the block but the carbs were way out of sync, probably from when I took them off back in 2019 to give them a thorough cleaning.
Anyway, I finally get the carbs back in sync (mostly by doing it by ear, will use a homemade sync tool once I have it starting again) but when I tried to start it all I hear is a whirling sound. I'm pretty sure it's not the starter solenoid, I've had that go back on me years back so I think I remember what it sounds like. It sounds like the starter motor is just spinning and not turning over the engine at all.
Did a bit of poking and I'm thinking that the start motor might have gone bad but I'm also worried that the engine might have seized. The starter motor was working fine until I started messing with the carbs, I'm worried that my adjustments might have done something after the many years of them being out of sync although I have no idea why that would be, the timing just seems too coincidental. I tried to push the bike a bit in 1st gear to test if I can get the engine to turn but it won't budge at all, I even rolled it a bit with the clutch engaged but as soon as I dump the clutch the back wheel just skids and drags, don't think its turning the engine at all. I might just drain the oil from the bike, take off the crank case cover, and see if I can turn the engine manually. It's due for an oil change anyway.
Any other ideas on what it could be or if there's anyway to test the problem without having to rip the bike apart? I have a spare parts bike with a starter motor so if I can confirm that the engine turns I'll probably swap the starter motor but it would be nice to know if the spare parts starter motor is good before I start all that ripping, seems like it's a bit of a PITA to get to the start motor.
Appreciate any help, cheers!
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:20 am
by Herb
If the engine is locked up the starter wouldn't turn.
Pull the spark plugs, put it in high gear and rock it back and forth. The engine should turn over.
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:36 am
by Herb
Sorry, double post.
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:27 am
by navigator
STOP!
Do this first...
The left chrome engine cover has a threaded plug in the center of it.
Remove that plug.
Put the bike in neutral.
Using a socket wrench, go thru that hole and turn the crank COUNTER CLOCKWISE.
It should spin easily...even easier if the spark plugs are removed.
Then try the starter motor again,
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:28 am
by navigator
jhorgan24 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:04 am
Hi all,
Been working on getting my VS800 road worthy again after only riding it a tiny bit since 2019. Just for context, I had it running a few weeks ago and even took it around the block but the carbs were way out of sync, probably from when I took them off back in 2019 to give them a thorough cleaning.
Anyway, I finally get the carbs back in sync (mostly by doing it by ear, will use a homemade sync tool once I have it starting again) but when I tried to start it all I hear is a whirling sound. I'm pretty sure it's not the starter solenoid, I've had that go back on me years back so I think I remember what it sounds like. It sounds like the starter motor is just spinning and not turning over the engine at all.
Did a bit of poking and I'm thinking that the start motor might have gone bad but I'm also worried that the engine might have seized. The starter motor was working fine until I started messing with the carbs, I'm worried that my adjustments might have done something after the many years of them being out of sync although I have no idea why that would be, the timing just seems too coincidental. I tried to push the bike a bit in 1st gear to test if I can get the engine to turn but it won't budge at all, I even rolled it a bit with the clutch engaged but as soon as I dump the clutch the back wheel just skids and drags, don't think its turning the engine at all. I might just drain the oil from the bike, take off the crank case cover, and see if I can turn the engine manually. It's due for an oil change anyway.
Any other ideas on what it could be or if there's anyway to test the problem without having to rip the bike apart? I have a spare parts bike with a starter motor so if I can confirm that the engine turns I'll probably swap the starter motor but it would be nice to know if the spare parts starter motor is good before I start all that ripping, seems like it's a bit of a PITA to get to the start motor.
Appreciate any help, cheers!
STOP!
Do this first...
The left chrome engine cover has a threaded plug in the center of it.
Remove that plug.
Put the bike in neutral.
Using a socket wrench, go thru that hole and turn the crank COUNTER CLOCKWISE.
It should spin easily...even easier if the spark plugs are removed.
Then try the starter motor again,
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:48 pm
by jhorgan24
Thanks for the great tip! I took off the plug and managed to crank the engine. There was a bit of resistance but nothing too crazy, I didn't take out the spark plugs so that makes sense.
So that means that it's not a problem with the engine and probably either a starter motor issue or an issue with the way it connect to the engine, right?
Unrelated, is it possible to start the engine by hooking up a drill to that bolt that you get access to? I assume that would get oil everywhere, just curious if that's a viable way to get it started if the starter ever broke down in the middle of nowhere but I happened to have an impact drill nearby.
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:58 am
by navigator
Well it would more likely remove that bolt since you are turning CCW.
The starter motor uses a sprag clutch, which may be hung up.
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:48 pm
by Herb
IIRR there was a case of a starter that the shaft broke and would only spin.
Pull the starter off and check it out. There are only 2 bolts holding it. The shaft is splined and goes into a gear that turns the sprage clutch assembly.
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:22 pm
by jhorgan24
So I started doing some disassembly and it definitely seems like the starter clutch is shot. I removed the left side engine cover noticed that the starter clutch spins freely in both directions. So at least I've found the root problem. I did a quick pass at the manual on how to replace the starter clutch and it says that I need a special tool but it didn't seem too descriptive on how to use it. I can't work on the bike until next weekend anyway so that'll give me plenty of time to find some videos to watch to get a better idea of whats going on.
I also disassembled the engine cover on my spare parts bike and that clutch seems to be in pretty good shape as far as I can tell without taking the thing off. At the very least it only spins in one direction which is a big improvement over my current bike.
I didn't see any material specific to starter clutch removal for the VS800 but if guys have any advice I'll happily take what I can get!
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:47 pm
by hillsy v2
jhorgan24 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:22 pm
So I started doing some disassembly and it definitely seems like the starter clutch is shot. I removed the left side engine cover noticed that the starter clutch spins freely in both directions. So at least I've found the root problem. I did a quick pass at the manual on how to replace the starter clutch and it says that I need a special tool but it didn't seem too descriptive on how to use it. I can't work on the bike until next weekend anyway so that'll give me plenty of time to find some videos to watch to get a better idea of whats going on.
I also disassembled the engine cover on my spare parts bike and that clutch seems to be in pretty good shape as far as I can tell without taking the thing off. At the very least it only spins in one direction which is a big improvement over my current bike.
I didn't see any material specific to starter clutch removal for the VS800 but if guys have any advice I'll happily take what I can get!
If it's the same as the 1500 the starter clutch is mounted on the back of the stator rotor - so if you have a spare unit on another motor than it's simply a matter of using the puller to take off the rotor incl starter clutch and switching them over. The rotor is keyed for the ignition timing so make sure you don't lose the key / line it back up before you bolt it in.
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:45 pm
by jhorgan24
Swapping out the starter clutch did the trick! Wasn't too bad either once I got a hold of an impact wrench, just a bit of a PITA with getting the foot peg rest off to get access to the engine cover.
I definitely broke the pins off the foot peg bolts since I didn't realize they were there when removing them, I'm probably going to get replacements for them, in the meantime I added some loctite to make sure they don't get loose. Is there a section in the manual that describes the bolts and pattern for the foot rest? I think I got the longer ones in the right place but it was maddening trying to search the manual to make sure I was putting the right bolts in the right spot.
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:56 am
by navigator
IIRC only the 4 inner bolts have pins, the 4 outer do not.
I forgot now, but maybe the outer ones were longer?
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:03 am
by Herb
I jsut remembered where the bolts with pin holes in them went, all others went in the other holes...
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:46 pm
by jhorgan24
Yea, definitely wish I had taken note of that when I took them out. The funny thing is that I didn't even notice that 4 of the bolts were different when I took all 8 out because the 4 with pins all broke off at about the same length as the non-pin bolts and all the bolts were so dirty I didn't notice that some were broken off until I was done. Oh well, live and learn I guess.
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:42 pm
by hillsy v2
In an exercise of 20/20 hindsight - does this help?
Looks like the 4 longer bolts with the R clips are on the outer holes of the plate (#2 and #4).
Re: Starter Motor Spins
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:55 am
by jhorgan24
That's a great diagram! Thanks a lot for your help everyone!