UN F'N BELIEVABLE

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Tbeck
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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Tbeck » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:36 pm

Mattsunn, maybe? But I think what she's proposing is that we "reconsider" a long standing assertion that effort equals success and failure equals a lack of effort.
It's more of an academic exercise in examining how we arrived at this belief and if it stands up to scrutiny. You could think of it as a "Socratic" self reflection.
For those unfamiliar with this approach, you take a held belief/opinion, and question the assertion to arrive at your answer. You then question the answer you arrived at, and continue this process as far as you can take the questions and answers.
It can be both fun and enlightening. I have students examine the question of whether killing is ever justifiable.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Herb » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:20 pm

Tbeck wrote:Mattsunn, maybe? But I think what she's proposing is that we "reconsider" a long standing assertion that effort equals success and failure equals a lack of effort.
It's more of an academic exercise in examining how we arrived at this belief and if it stands up to scrutiny. You could think of it as a "Socratic" self reflection.
For those unfamiliar with this approach, you take a held belief/opinion, and question the assertion to arrive at your answer. You then question the answer you arrived at, and continue this process as far as you can take the questions and answers.
It can be both fun and enlightening. I have students examine the question of whether killing is ever justifiable.


While I agree that effort does not always equal success, That is NOT what she said. She was saying that we should not even consider hard work as any kind of pathway to success, and that meritocracy is a myth.

She is wrong, very few people succeed without working hard to prove themselves.

Maybe we should do more to define success as other than possessions, but telling people they don't need to work hard to get where they want to be, is not the answer.

Claiming that whites have an easier path to success is pretty much counter productive for other races.
I can't seem to win the lottery. I think I have used up all of my good luck riding motorcycles.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Fred » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:28 pm

Tbeck wrote:Mattsunn, maybe? But I think what she's proposing is that we "reconsider" a long standing assertion that effort equals success and failure equals a lack of effort.


Effort may not equal success if you are in the wrong place, as the spider tenaciously rebuilds in a door way.

But failure definitely equals lack of effort.

Effort in calculating wether to build in the door way.

Once effort is placed correctly then tenacious building will reap rewards.

There is no escape from hard work on this planet, it is not human to want to do so. I L_O_V_E_ it.

Hard work is life,-- a good hard days work cleanses the soul and the mind, even if just the sunset, food and rest is the reward.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby lonerider » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 pm

To sum it up, you grease the skids to success with hard work. Other wise, you are likely to go nowhere. :funnylast:

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby jonnycando » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:57 pm

Tbeck wrote:Jonnyc, perhaps, but we live in a society that does measure success by material worth. As for hard work being good for the mind and body? Rubbish!
Hard work wears out the body and the lack of equitable reward result's in psychological stress. Don't sound healthy to me.
Luck is when preparation meets opportunity? Lol... Now that's conditioning. Attributed to Seneca, but how did that work out for the Roman's?
And we are following the same path the Roman's charted, lol


What society does is anathema and moot to me. I do it my way or it doesn't get done at all. Hard work may eventually kill me but I die knowing I gave my all. I may not always be rewarded for my doings but the satisfaction that it is done well is a self reward. That suffices better than many will ever let themselves believe.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby lonerider » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:33 pm

jonnycando wrote:...What society does is anathema and moot to me. I do it my way or it doesn't get done at all. Hard work may eventually kill me but I die knowing I gave my all. I may not always be rewarded for my doings but the satisfaction that it is done well is a self reward. That suffices better than many will ever let themselves believe.

I hear ya, jonnycando, I hear ya. It's called doing your best and having pride in what you do. :clap:

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Cuban » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:29 am

[space]

Image
:rock: In the age of information, ignorance is a choice. Facts are not partisan. The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is orders of magnitude more than to produce it.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby wally w » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:34 pm

Cuban wrote:[space]

Image

This could explain some of the losses the University of Oklahoma suffered.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Tbeck » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:12 pm

Jonnyc and lonerider, and your position is exactly what she was talking about. You folks are stuck in the great American myth and don't even realize it.
It's the old saying, "stuck in a rut." How many working days, hours, week's does it take for success? What benefits should be anticipated or expected? How many days is too many between periods of unemployment, and do you really need a job?
American's are as a whole driven to work. We stress when not employed. Why?
If you aren't willing to honestly evaluate the aforementioned, you can't really condemn what this professor was putting forth.
The question is are folk's brave enough to engage in the Socratic evaluation, to examine where their work ethic really has it's roots?
I am not condemning anyone's work ethics, and neither was this professor. What's proposed is where it comes from, and whether it's a false narrative.

I would suggest that based on how hard everyone here claims to work, and since none posting are millionaires, the professor is likely on to something.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Herb » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:08 pm

Tbeck wrote:Jonnyc and lonerider, and your position is exactly what she was talking about. You folks are stuck in the great American myth and don't even realize it.
It's the old saying, "stuck in a rut." How many working days, hours, week's does it take for success? What benefits should be anticipated or expected? How many days is too many between periods of unemployment, and do you really need a job?
American's are as a whole driven to work. We stress when not employed. Why?
If you aren't willing to honestly evaluate the aforementioned, you can't really condemn what this professor was putting forth.
The question is are folk's brave enough to engage in the Socratic evaluation, to examine where their work ethic really has it's roots?
I am not condemning anyone's work ethics, and neither was this professor. What's proposed is where it comes from, and whether it's a false narrative.

I would suggest that based on how hard everyone here claims to work, and since none posting are millionaires, the professor is likely on to something.


So the only thing you see as success is money?

Where as many of us find success in doing something we like doing, do well, and take pride in the doing. As long as we have enough money to make ends meet, we consider ourselves successful.

No, I am not a millionaire, but i have a satisfaction from looking at myself in the mirror and can honestly say I have never stolen, never cheated, and have done something that very few can do and have done.

As a material person you probably can't understand what I am saying, but I am willing to bet police officers, and many other people that have jobs that provide personal satisfaction, understand.
I can't seem to win the lottery. I think I have used up all of my good luck riding motorcycles.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Tbeck » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:37 am

Herb, no I am not saying that at all. What I'm saying is "how" you measure your success is "grounded" in a "belief."
The question here is how did "YOU" acquire this belief?
The professor is suggesting that the "basis" for MOST American workers value system for success are based on a false myth, or we could call it innuendo. Somewhere in our past we were led to believe that hard work, pride in accomplishment, etc are key's to success. But are they REALLY?
The professor is putting forth the suggestion that under close personal analysis, the belief doesn't support the outcome. This is particularly noticeable when comparing US workers with those of other developed nation's.
The point here is that YOU have to do the analysis yourself. You may or may not arrive at a similar position as the professor. Or you may discover something completely unique that led you, but that you weren't consciously aware of.
That's all.. it's nothing more than that.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Fred » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:42 am

[quote="Herb"

So the only thing you see as success is money?

Where as many of us find success in doing something we like doing, do well, and take pride in the doing. As long as we have enough money to make ends meet, we consider ourselves successful.

No, I am not a millionaire, but i have a satisfaction from looking at myself in the mirror and can honestly say I have never stolen, never cheated, and have done something that very few can do and have done.

As a material person you probably can't understand what I am saying, but I am willing to bet police officers, and many other people that have jobs that provide personal satisfaction, understand.[/quote]

Thats what people without money say. What else can they.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby old time rider » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:16 am

Lots more people than you would think worth a million dollars.Its not near as much money as when we were kids. On the other side so many more that make good money and all ways in debt! Guess I just hate it so bad have not bought anything since my house/baby farm was paid off that I could not pay cash for. What up sets me is the mind set of these kids raised by ones that have a hand out all the time and work the system for every penny when able to work.
Sure teachers see the same.When part time retired driving the school bus one cute gal in H.S. had parents that were milking the system so bad and had so many little law suits against any thing they could get a dollar or settle out of court. Other kids were talking about going to U.K.,Louisville,EKU. for more education after H.S.. This gal as serious as could be asked,"what do they give you?" They asked her what do you mean?" "You know how much money do they give you to go?" :bonk:

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Tbeck » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:22 pm

OT, I suppose this story you posted fit's within the context of what the professor was suggesting also. Obviously how that family views success is different than how the majority of respondents to this post view success. Are they wrong, right, and how did they come about their views? Based on your post it would appear to be a learned view? And that's what the professor suggested.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Herb » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:43 pm

Tbeck wrote:OT, I suppose this story you posted fit's within the context of what the professor was suggesting also. Obviously how that family views success is different than how the majority of respondents to this post view success. Are they wrong, right, and how did they come about their views? Based on your post it would appear to be a learned view? And that's what the professor suggested.


actually, the professor was suggesting that we teach kids to milk the system and NOT work hard.

Kinda like freddie says he did to make all his money.
I can't seem to win the lottery. I think I have used up all of my good luck riding motorcycles.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Lechy » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:38 pm

Remove all social handouts and benefits and you will see basically 2 types. One type will go out and get work, the other type will sit on a corner crying with their hands out. How would you measure success then? The ones who by hard work provide for their families, would they be the successful ones? Or would you measure the other's success by how much they managed to beg to support them for that day? It really depends on perspective.
Of course I did not take into this the criminal element.
Tbek, how would you define yourself, successful or failure, and why?



























/
Grow old disgracefully young man.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby tabasco » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:12 am

This leftist universities make me puke. They are ruining the country.

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Tbeck » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:21 am

Herb, actually she said the same things that YOU have been saying throughout your posts. Merit based belief's, and a ladder to success are false narrative.
Funny but I was glancing at everyone's response and thinking that folk's read the op ed piece and didn't actually take the time to consider what the PROFESSOR was saying. INSTEAD they took the BAIT so neatly placed before them. This piece is very similar to the one I posted about grades, in fact the same except that I left out the race baiting portion. Read the responses and you'll have to conclude that the professor, nailed this, and folk's here got sucked into the agenda for race baiting.
Lechy, I wouldn't and don't evaluate myself on that level. I look forward to new opportunities each day, and as such have what I need. That is neither success or failure, or it could be either.
It makes little sense to pat yourself on the back, or beat yourself up over vague terminology. How about you?

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby RoadKing » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:31 am

A million dollars is still a ton of money if you carefully manage and invest it yourself. If you own your home and have a million in assets, even today you are a very wealthy and blessed person. Live modestly and help others when you can. And when The Joneses are purchasing extraneous crap, ignore them and go for a ride on that old familiar putt!

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Re: UN F'N BELIEVABLE

Postby Tbeck » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:41 am

Good advice RK


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