"The owner's responsibility"?

[Tbeck]

lonerider, I am not arguing with you on this, I believe that we just come at this from different places, experience, and such. I believe that the US is heading towards a bad place because of ideological difference.
For example the 80's promoted cop's as your friend. Never in the history of law enforcement has a cop been a friend and that's a terrible message. The 80's also saw the influence of affirmative action. Nothing worse in my opinion than placing someone in a job that they aren't capable of doing. Women, minorities, etc drafted into a serious field that many couldn't qualify to do, simply to meet quota's.
In 1996 eight universities near me graduated a total of 100,000 students with degree's in criminal justice. Most of those graduate's couldn't meet the physical test if their life depended on it, and yet many did because physical standards got lowered to meet recruitment requirements.
This is what's wearing a badge and carrying a gun. Which I suppose wouldn't be so bad if the department increased training.
To give you a better picture, these dumbass cop's taser each other in training classes. When I asked WHY they believed that practice was necessary the answer threw me; so they know what it feels like. I asked them why not shoot each other than? After all then they'd know what it felt like. I was told that was silly... Duh!

[lonerider]

lonerider, I am not arguing with you on this, I believe that we just come at this from different places, experience, and such....

No argument, just a friendly debate. I grew up in an era where the cops took no nonsense from anyone and they were looked upon with fear or respect, or both. There was more than one member of my family who came away from an interrogation with visible signs of a serious ass-whuppin, but they got no sympathy from me. Knowing them as I did, they deserved what they got. I grew up in a big city and you either cooperated or you met up with the consequences. I never did like the policy of standing down instead of shoot to kill fleeing felons.

[RoadKing]

I never did like the policy of standing down instead of shoot to kill fleeing felons.

Fleeing felons. And therein lay the license to kill back in the San Jose streets of the 60’s. Smart people saw the cops as a gang who could legally murder. The word went like this, “Only a fool thinks a cop cannot shoot him. He’ll shoot you in the back and then claim he suspected, SUSPECTED, you of being a fleeing felon.” Street smarts believed this statement, survival demanded it, respected it.

[lonerider]

"Smart people"....You mean the ones that ran from the cops?

[RoadKing]

"Smart people"....You mean the ones that ran from the cops?

Now, that is not a smart response. You cannot refute what I am saying. Smart people respect fact. Smart people don’t run. Smart people, understanding reality, respect a threat to a their lives. The smart people I refer to were as aware of street politics as LEO. Smart people could be hard working and honest military vets yet still be unnecessarily harassed by LEO simply because of long hair, beard, and Harley chop. Smart people therefore showed due respect for the fact that they were going to be profiled and looked upon as tho they were lower than a scumbag Commie shit disturber and we showed calm and class and total cool around potential trigger happy LEO... smart. SMART! That was the 60’s. Times have changed. The mind set towards bikers has gotten smarter and more respectful all around. Tell ya sumpin, had a Brother, a big fellow, who was unarmed the night a K9 got away from his handler and lunged into a group of us, jumped my Brother and knocked him to the ground, my Brother broke the dog’s neck and seconds later my Brother died from a bullet to his back. We cried, we mourned, we rode in strong formation to the cemetery. Needless. Sometimes being smart and respectful was not enough. That horror leads me to this day and when I read a thread like this in which a LEO shoots a dog it makes me fear for the safety of my beautiful friends even from behind a big secure containment fence. I know reality first hand. I am a law abiding respectful SMART retired homeowner these days and yet I still fear a bullet WHICH WOULD BE MY RESPONSIBILITY if it destroyed my loved ones. Thank God I live in a small community where everyone knows who I am and see me walking with my dogs. But it is still a potentially dangerous world out there and there are still narrow minded unqualified paranoid people in all demographics, including LEO. To this day it is SMART to be aware of that and do everything humanly possible to ensure the safety of my dogs. Very low crime area here. Low threat from the bad guys and therefore more likely LEO is going to protect and serve me even though I still have long hair and a beard and a bad ass Harley Davidson.

I have to add... I have shown respect all my life, always especially to my elders. I am now 75 years old and even though I don’t expect it, I demand it... respect, even from LEO who is paid from my taxes. I’ve lived long and am way too old to tolerate disrespect. I am respected for who I am and for my age in this small community. It is a blessing. Do not misunderstand me. I would be the first to help a local LEO in need and unbelievably I am still quite capable.

[lonerider]

Yeah, I was there. The 60s were a time of trouble and turmoil when sides were taken, when anti-establishment protesters rallied in the streets and did more than their share of provocations causing those whose responsibility was maintaining order to push the limits in tamping down on the chaos. You must ask yourself, why were the police out in force, garbed in riot gear, enduring bricks and rocks thrown their way, trying to control what was at times uncontrollable? Why were the dogs brought to the scene? Why were the anti's "unnecessarily" harassed? Because there was a total lack of respect for authority. Cops and military were reviled and spat upon. "Longhairs" and bearded ones swarmed and occupied college campuses and city streets. In response, the cops sometimes overreacted and themselves rioted as during the 1968 Democrat convention in Chicago. Respect? There was a total lack of respect on both sides, and I don't want to experience those times ever again!

.

[RoadKing]

Yeah, I was there. The 60s were a time of trouble and turmoil when sides were taken, when anti-establishment protesters rallied in the streets and did more than their share of provocations causing those whose responsibility was maintaining order to push the limits in tamping down on the chaos. You must ask yourself, why were the police out in force, garbed in riot gear, enduring bricks and rocks thrown their way, trying to control what was at times uncontrollable? Why were the dogs brought to the scene? Why were the anti's "unnecessarily" harassed? Because there was a total lack of respect for authority. Cops and military were reviled and spat upon. "Longhairs" and bearded ones swarmed and occupied college campuses and city streets. In response, the cops sometimes overreacted and themselves rioted as during the 1968 Democrat convention in Chicago. Respect? There was a total lack of respect on both sides, and I don't want to experience those times ever again!

.

Huge difference between the bikers and protesters of the 60’s and I am very able to stop and consider because I was right there in The Bay Area where I witnessed and was part of that history. A massive motorcycle scene and we were patriots and vets and hard working young men and the peace creeps hated us because we were pro military and pro Capital. During the late 50’s and early 60’s we emulated the long hair and beards from the outlaw history of the US following The Civil War as an expression of freedom but it was a life style stance and not political. Years later the new hippy scene in The Bay Area Called us space cowboys and began growing long hair of their own. We never went to war with cops and we damn sure threw no bricks. Unlike the peace creeps we were very well armed and kept to ourselves. And only a blind fool would say he couldn’t tell the difference between the two groups... we were the fun loving tough SOBs on Harleys.

[lonerider]

Maybe bikers were a "massive motorcycle scene" in the Bay area, but they got nowhere near the publicity that the college brats and hippies got due to their taking over campuses all across the US. As you said, the bikers "kept to ourselves." The campuses were so out of control the National Guard was called in and shots were fired. The cops in many cases acted with great constraint, and the Guard ultimately held guard without any ammo to reduce casualties. Until recently, the nation was never more divided and polarized, but now we are going through another cycle of divisive politics.

[RoadKing]

Maybe bikers were a "massive motorcycle scene" in the Bay area, but they got nowhere near the publicity that the college brats and hippies got due to their taking over campuses all across the US. As you said, the bikers "kept to ourselves." The campuses were so out of control the National Guard was called in and shots were fired. The cops in many cases acted with great constraint, and the Guard ultimately held guard without any ammo to reduce casualties. Until recently, the nation was never more divided and polarized, but now we are going through another cycle of divisive politics.

Today’s motorcycle culture is nearly 100% for The Blue Collar Billionaire and I am proud as an American to be on that side of the divide.

In the 60’s the only time we got press publicity was when we did wrong. No one cared when we did good. But times have changed. Communities wildly open their arms and businesses to us which brings mixed emotions of tears and joy when I recall those years when they closed shop at our approach. Hollywood sucked, portraying us as mindless thugs. Today we know better, don’t we.