Designer 5th gear mod.

[AntiqueIntruder]

I remember there was some talk on the old board about Designer coming up with a tranny mod. I have seen references to it here, but so far, little else. Did it happen? Was it an additional gear for the older vs1400? Or a mod for the newer 5 speed tranny? Still curious.

[Skipper]

Don't quote me on any of this but if I remember correctly, you can't add a fifth gear to a four speed, I would assume because the cases are likely different and would require machining.
Gear ratio wise the fourth in a five speed is slightly lower (slower) than fourth in a four speed. Fifth is only a little taller than the original fourth in a four speed. Think a 5 speed is approximately a 300 rpm drop from a four speed at typical cruising, 65/70 ish ?
1,2, & 3rd are identical for all years.
My thoughts having owned both, I prefer riding the four speed but enjoy less vibration and better mpg from the five speed. Fourth feels like a wasted shift, kind of crammed in and unnecessary.

The mod goes like this: take the fourth and fifth gears from an intruder 1500 and pop them into the 1400 (5 speed) theoretically a direct swap. The 1500 fourth is the same ratio as an original 4 speed fourth and the fifth is taller yet equating to an approximate 600 rpm drop.

Unfortunately I can't confirm if this worked or not. Perhaps the man himself will be along to say one way or another.

[Night_Wolf]

Don't quote me on any of this but if I remember correctly, you can't add a fifth gear to a four speed, I would assume because the cases are likely different and would require machining.
Gear ratio wise the fourth in a five speed is slightly lower (slower) than fourth in a four speed. Fifth is only a little taller than the original fourth in a four speed. Think a 5 speed is approximately a 300 rpm drop from a four speed at typical cruising, 65/70 ish ?
1,2, & 3rd are identical for all years.
My thoughts having owned both, I prefer riding the four speed but enjoy less vibration and better mpg from the five speed. Fourth feels like a wasted shift, kind of crammed in and unnecessary.

The mod goes like this: take the fourth and fifth gears from an intruder 1500 and pop them into the 1400 (5 speed) theoretically a direct swap. The 1500 fourth is the same ratio as an original 4 speed fourth and the fifth is taller yet equating to an approximate 600 rpm drop.

Unfortunately I can't confirm if this worked or not. Perhaps the man himself will be along to say one way or another.

4th & 5th gear are changed in the 5 speed version & yes it works. AFAIK at least 5 people have performed the mod with great results

[Skipper]

^ good to know, I was pretty sure it worked but don't like saying so without personal experience.
If anyone's interested for the record or just to simplify what I was talking about, here's the gear ratios.
1400 4 speed. 4th: 1.041
1400 5 speed. 4th: 1.086 / 5th: .96
1500 5 speed. 4th: 1.041 / 5th: .884

[Forge]

So could you simply change out the 5th gear in your already 5 speed equipped '05 1400 with one from a 1500 to get the slightly lower rpms at highway speed?

[m2h]

So could you simply change out the 5th gear in your already 5 speed equipped '05 1400 with one from a 1500 to get the slightly lower rpms at highway speed?

No dont think thats a go as there is 0.045 difference in the ratio between the two fourth gears which means the teeth are a different distance apart. Very small but enough to cause some grief!!

[Forge]

So could you simply change out the 5th gear in your already 5 speed equipped '05 1400 with one from a 1500 to get the slightly lower rpms at highway speed?

No dont think thats a go as there is 0.045 difference in the ratio between the two fourth gears which means the teeth are a different distance apart. Very small but enough to cause some grief!!

So then I could do a 4th and 5th swap with no problem if I wanted the lower rpm's? Is it a simple matter of just swapping the gears only?

[AntiqueIntruder]

Thanks all,

Wanted to make the four speed a little more pleasant on the highway, anyone know of a final gear change that would work? I'm sure the tranny gearing would support a taller rearend gear ie, 1st is definitely low enough to take off. Anyone know the ratio and feasibility of say, transplanting an lc 1500 rear setup?

[old time rider]

One high mile rider on the purple had put the swing arm and all off a 1500 on his 1400. Sure ones with better recall than me will tell you about it.As many as they made sure a few to pick from in yards now or buy a D.O.A. bike cheap.

[AntiqueIntruder]

Kinda what I was thinking, O.T.R. I'm almost done with the comfort mods...some seat work to do, and floor boards. Then I thought maybe a winter gearing project if it's doable.

[Skipper]

Thanks all,

Wanted to make the four speed a little more pleasant on the highway, anyone know of a final gear change that would work? I'm sure the tranny gearing would support a taller rearend gear ie, 1st is definitely low enough to take off. Anyone know the ratio and feasibility of say, transplanting an lc 1500 rear setup?

As far as I know... the 1400, 1500, s83, c90 and even as far back as the cavalcade all share the same final drive with the only difference being slight variations in length of the driveshaft. Final drive ratio is 2.666
There is one option for change, but it goes the wrong way. The 800/c50 is 3.2 those guys like to swap in 1400 drives to lower their rpms, but, ofcourse that doesnt help you.
They're may still be an option out there? ;IDunno:

There was one other thing Designer was working on, and that was to fit the slightly larger 1500 clutch into the 1400. It would effectively raise the ratio in all gears an additional %10. If I recall that wasn't exactly a direct swap and i think there was clearance issues with the outer cover. Again, I can't remember if it ever worked or not.

[Skipper]

So could you simply change out the 5th gear in your already 5 speed equipped '05 1400 with one from a 1500 to get the slightly lower rpms at highway speed?

No dont think thats a go as there is 0.045 difference in the ratio between the two fourth gears which means the teeth are a different distance apart. Very small but enough to cause some grief!!

I'm not a transmission expert so correct me if im wrong but I have to disagree with you there. It's not that the teeth are a different distance apart, but rather, a different number of teeth are on each gear. In this case 1.041 is made with 25/24 gears and 1.086 is made by 25/23 tooth gears.
Regardless of how the different ratios for each gear are made, the mainshaft and countershaft that all the gears ride on are parralel to eachother and held into the cases via bearing on each end.

Forge, if you only wanted to change out fifth I'm sure you could.. but at that point, but why not change 4th too? It may be personal opinion but the 1.086 ratio really was a step backwards on suzukis part. ;IDunno:

[Forge]

So could you simply change out the 5th gear in your already 5 speed equipped '05 1400 with one from a 1500 to get the slightly lower rpms at highway speed?

No dont think thats a go as there is 0.045 difference in the ratio between the two fourth gears which means the teeth are a different distance apart. Very small but enough to cause some grief!!

I'm not a transmission expert so correct me if im wrong but I have to disagree with you there. It's not that the teeth are a different distance apart, but rather, a different number of teeth are on each gear. In this case 1.041 is made with 25/24 gears and 1.086 is made by 25/23 tooth gears.
Regardless of how the different ratios for each gear are made, the mainshaft and countershaft that all the gears ride on are parralel to eachother and held into the cases via bearing on each end.

Forge, if you only wanted to change out fifth I'm sure you could.. but at that point, but why not change 4th too? It may be personal opinion but the 1.086 ratio really was a step backwards on suzukis part. ;IDunno:

I agree. It would be smarter to do both 4th and 5th. So is all that is needed is to simply swap out the gears in my 05 S83 or does anything else need to be changed or modified?

[m2h]

So could you simply change out the 5th gear in your already 5 speed equipped '05 1400 with one from a 1500 to get the slightly lower rpms at highway speed?

No dont think thats a go as there is 0.045 difference in the ratio between the two fourth gears which means the teeth are a different distance apart. Very small but enough to cause some grief!!

I'm not a transmission expert so correct me if im wrong but I have to disagree with you there. It's not that the teeth are a different distance apart, but rather, a different number of teeth are on each gear. In this case 1.041 is made with 25/24 gears and 1.086 is made by 25/23 tooth gears.
Regardless of how the different ratios for each gear are made, the mainshaft and countershaft that all the gears ride on are parralel to eachother and held into the cases via bearing on each end.

Forge, if you only wanted to change out fifth I'm sure you could.. but at that point, but why not change 4th too? It may be personal opinion but the 1.086 ratio really was a step backwards on suzukis part. ;IDunno:

Yes maybe i didnt say that well. To get the difference 25/24 -25/23 the pitch circle diameter (at the curved bit where the teeth roll around each other) would be slightly different which would make the diameter of the 25 tooth bigger and the 23 tooth smaller. It wouldnt be much but i dont think you could do the straight swap. I figure the 1500 5th would be too tight. Just my past experience with naval gunnery gearboxes. I wonder what the cost of the gears would be to do the conversion? sounds like a good winter project?

[old time rider]

I did some touring on my 1400 four speed and not bad.One big plus IMO on a swing arm and all swap from a 1500 is the mag wheel and run tubeless tires or even dark side.Like spokes in looks better than even custom mags but for touring plug and go on side of road way to go. Herb and Dr.H. both have put a LOT of miles on 1400s.Makes my 45,000 look like a starter bike. [emoji2]

[Herb]

The designer mod was putting the full set of 1500 4th and 5th gears in the 1400.

The 1500 has a true overdrive and really does cut the rpms at cruising speeds.

Yes both the driven and drive gears, for 4th and 5th, have to be changed as sets.

It would be a major job to install a 5 speed into a 4 speed bikes. It would require changing the shifter ratchet, the shift drum, adding a shift fork. all of which CAN be done but really isn't worth the effort or cost.

I have toured, extensively on my 87,4 speed, 1400. I really wish I had never sold it. The 5th gear on the 1400 is not enough taller to make any real difference in the feel of the bike or the gas mileage, and the extra shift is a PITA. I have a lot of miles on both the 4 and 5 speed, I would prefer the 4 speed. I have also ridden the 1500, wasn't impressed with the difference in the 5 speed.

I am not sure if it is the extra weight of the 1500 or the taller 5th gear, but I was WAY under impressed with the top gear roll on of the 1500. So much so that I DIDN'T buy the 1500.

[AntiqueIntruder]

After about 600 recent miles, I don't think she needs a gear mod. The old girl still pulls like a tractor at 80...(or more). I guess my problem has always been comfort. Damn thing is still a joy to ride. Turned 30,000 this trip. I think I'll just resync the carbs, and find/make some floorboards...and ride the hell out of it.

[Lechy]

This is for a V Star 650 but can probably be good for the intruders.
[youtube][/youtube]

[emoji41]