T...those damn teachers again!!!

[Herb]

I agree that school choice isn't the complete answer to the issues but it is the best available right now.

And when the teachers whine about the parents, maybe they need to remember that the issues started way back in the 1980s with teachers telling the students that their parents couldn't do a large number of normal punishments I grew up with. Then if a student told a teacher that their parent(s) took their dinner away (because the brat threw a fit about what was served and threw his meal at the wall breaking the plate) the teacher would call child services and the parent would be arrested.

Before you start calling me a liar, I saw it happen...

Teachers have assited in making parents afraid to punish a kid and the laws are such that a reasonable punishment is considered child abuse.

A VERY large portion of the problem can be, correctly, blamed on teachers and the whole school system.

I know that this paints the large number of really good teachers with a wide brush, but if they had been doing more to get those lousy teachers, and administrators, out of the system, we would be in much better shape today.

[DevilsFan]

Herb, this is where I disagree (partially) with you.

It's a PUBLIC school. Yes, there are many teachers that are woke, affirmative action, liberals. But I'm telling you, the VAST MAJORITY are good, solid teachers that only want to educate children on acedemic subjects.

This ISN'T on just the teachers. As I've said before...WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THERE WERE SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS??? Where was the community during the Clinton years of "It take a village"??? Where was the community during Obama's school lunch program???

We've had the REactive, it ain't my kid so why should I worry about it mindet for a few decades now.

School Boards don't listen to teachers. But get a few angry mamma bears in there and things change.

It's everyone's civic duty. Our society get's good...and then takes their eyes off the ball. Then bad things happen and they're surprised?!?!

[Tbeck]

Sgt, you are completely wrong on the school choice model and I will try to explain why. I will use $/numbers from my district as an example.
If we break down student enrollment to cost per student it rounds off to about $14500 annually per student. Now obviously it doesn't cost that for teachers, so the number includes everything from utilities, to teacher's, technology, building upkeep, busing, and supplies used annually.
So let's say that 3 parents out of a school decided they want to send their child to a parochial school. That's not an unusual reason, and it is based on their religious values, not because of a better education. That means a district school would lose close to 45k for the 3 students. That's one teachers salary for my district. So now the school is running 1 teacher low, so what happens to class size? Goes up which means less individual interaction in the classroom. This in turn lowers educational outcomes. I should state that an average class size for most public schools are running around 28-30 students per teacher. All research including DoD recommends no more than 25 to 1.
The problem with school choice isn't that parents get to choose as in the marketplace, rather a disproportionate loss of funding occurs. How does a district break down cost for operations so that the only financial loss experienced is individualized? Obviously the bulk of the $14500 per student is in keeping the lights on and facilities running.
So school choice is a great example of how to close all public schools and not a recipe for improvement of education.
So when the public school closes, where do you think those teachers are going to be employed? And private/parochial school's won't be able to turn away special needs kid's. And these schools will be required to meet state and federal mandates.
So in reality all that will be accomplished is the privatization of public schools where the schools can raise tuition without public input. Which means higher school taxes so students get their free public funded education.
I hope that I have explained this in a way that show's that this proposal sounds good on the surface, but has a bunch of shortcomings and long term disadvantages. Again I wouldn't expect everyone to know all this stuff because really it's not on the radar for most. Goes back to what I was saying about the people making educational laws. They don't have the expertise to understand the negatives.

[Tbeck]

Herb, the problem wasn't teachers in the 1980's. It was AGAIN the legislature that created the problem. Teachers simply had to comply with the law. We still do because of MANDATED REPORTER legislation.

[Herb]

Herb, this is where I disagree (partially) with you.

It's a PUBLIC school. Yes, there are many teachers that are woke, affirmative action, liberals. But I'm telling you, the VAST MAJORITY are good, solid teachers that only want to educate children on acedemic subjects.

This ISN'T on just the teachers. As I've said before...WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THERE WERE SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS??? Where was the community during the Clinton years of "It take a village"??? Where was the community during Obama's school lunch program???

We've had the REactive, it ain't my kid so why should I worry about it mindet for a few decades now.

School Boards don't listen to teachers. But get a few angry mamma bears in there and things change.

It's everyone's civic duty. Our society get's good...and then takes their eyes off the ball. Then bad things happen and they're surprised?!?!

Actually, I was at school board meetings making my views heard almost every meeting. Didn't do fuck all good. They are the educated ones and know better than anyone else.

[sgtcall]

Sgt, you are completely wrong on the school choice model and I will try to explain why. I will use $/numbers from my district as an example.
If we break down student enrollment to cost per student it rounds off to about $14500 annually per student. Now obviously it doesn't cost that for teachers, so the number includes everything from utilities, to teacher's, technology, building upkeep, busing, and supplies used annually.
So let's say that 3 parents out of a school decided they want to send their child to a parochial school. That's not an unusual reason, and it is based on their religious values, not because of a better education. That means a district school would lose close to 45k for the 3 students. That's one teachers salary for my district. So now the school is running 1 teacher low, so what happens to class size? Goes up which means less individual interaction in the classroom. This in turn lowers educational outcomes. I should state that an average class size for most public schools are running around 28-30 students per teacher. All research including DoD recommends no more than 25 to 1.
The problem with school choice isn't that parents get to choose as in the marketplace, rather a disproportionate loss of funding occurs. How does a district break down cost for operations so that the only financial loss experienced is individualized? Obviously the bulk of the $14500 per student is in keeping the lights on and facilities running.
So school choice is a great example of how to close all public schools and not a recipe for improvement of education.
So when the public school closes, where do you think those teachers are going to be employed? And private/parochial school's won't be able to turn away special needs kid's. And these schools will be required to meet state and federal mandates.
So in reality all that will be accomplished is the privatization of public schools where the schools can raise tuition without public input. Which means higher school taxes so students get their free public funded education.
I hope that I have explained this in a way that show's that this proposal sounds good on the surface, but has a bunch of shortcomings and long term disadvantages. Again I wouldn't expect everyone to know all this stuff because really it's not on the radar for most. Goes back to what I was saying about the people making educational laws. They don't have the expertise to understand the negatives.

The parochial school argument is not really a good one. We have always had parents that chose to send their kids to parochial school for their own reasons and that will not change. Every Jewish kid I knew in high school went to a Jewish school in Atlanta and that was the 80s. Also in the legislation I have seen most school systems would only apply a portion of the amount per student to the school of choice and the rest would go to the public system. The NJ bill that failed was for up to 50% of the property tax paid by the family would go to the school of choice and that was only 25% per child up to 2 children as an offset for tuition. This in a state that claims 80% of our outrageous property tax goes to schools. By the way the state average property tax in NJ is $8,500 a year per household.

Also School choice is not just about private schools. School choice would also give parents the option of sending their kids to schools outside their district for a better education. I think Philly is already doing this by offering a lottery for extra space in each school.

[Tbeck]

Sgt, you already have school choice and there's no conditions or fee's/voucher. Because no school in the country has passed the nclb testing benchmark anyone can send there child to any public school and the home district has to provide transportation. Any way you want to swing the discussion, parents are simply robbing Peter to pay Paul with school choice. It would guarantee a complete collapse of education.

What would I change?
Bring back expulsion.
Repeal drop out law's
Remove special education from mainstream schools
Adopt a test and go curriculum...test out in 9th, complete core classes in 10th and students are done. Students who don't pass remain thru 12.
Lastly give authority back to teacher's in dealing with students.

[sgtcall]

Sgt, you already have school choice and there's no conditions or fee's/voucher. Because no school in the country has passed the nclb testing benchmark anyone can send there child to any public school and the home district has to provide transportation. Any way you want to swing the discussion, parents are simply robbing Peter to pay Paul with school choice. It would guarantee a complete collapse of education.

We don't have school choice at all here in NJ. I moved to my current house during my daughters senior year and since it is literally 500 yards away from her high school boundary I had to extend the lease at my rental house for anther two months to make it to the last day of October. If we would have officially moved before October 31st the district would have forced her to graduate from the high school in our new area. So just to keep her in the same school I paid two months rent on a house I didn't live in just to keep it as the address. I should have never told the school we were moving but screwed up and sent in the change of address paperwork promptly getting a reply from the school that my daughter needed to re-register into the other high school. Also, my new house is actually closer to her school than the one she was supposed to go to.

[DevilsFan]

Actually, I was at school board meetings making my views heard almost every meeting. Didn't do fuck all good. They are the educated ones and know better than anyone else.

Then I applaud you!

Too bad so many couldn't care less...until something happens they don't like. And even then...

[sgtcall]

What would I change?
Bring back expulsion.
Repeal drop out law's
Remove special education from mainstream schools
Adopt a test and go curriculum...test out in 9th, complete core classes in 10th and students are done. Students who don't pass remain thru 12.
Lastly give authority back to teacher's in dealing with students.

Add to this, automatically fire any teacher that preaches LBGTQ or freak sex to kids of any age.
Fire any teacher that hangs up a LBGTQ, MAGA, BLM, Build Back Better or any political flags or ideological flags or propaganda.
Fire any teacher that does not enter the classroom dressed in clothing appropriate to a professional environment and in alignment with their birth gender.
Physical Assault on a teacher is automatic expulsion for any student.
Group violence against a student by other students is automatic expulsion for all offenders.

[DevilsFan]

Add to this, automatically fire any teacher that preaches LBGTQ or freak sex to kids of any age.
Fire any teacher that hangs up a LBGTQ, MAGA, BLM, Build Back Better or any political flags or ideological flags or propaganda.
Fire any teacher that does not enter the classroom dressed in clothing appropriate to a professional environment and in alignment with their birth gender.
Physical Assault on a teacher is automatic expulsion for any student.
Group violence against a student by other students is automatic expulsion for all offenders.

What about the parents? Any obligations or consequences for them?

[sgtcall]

Add to this, automatically fire any teacher that preaches LBGTQ or freak sex to kids of any age.
Fire any teacher that hangs up a LBGTQ, MAGA, BLM, Build Back Better or any political flags or ideological flags or propaganda.
Fire any teacher that does not enter the classroom dressed in clothing appropriate to a professional environment and in alignment with their birth gender.
Physical Assault on a teacher is automatic expulsion for any student.
Group violence against a student by other students is automatic expulsion for all offenders.

What about the parents? Any obligations or consequences for them?

Why, there is already enough for the parents. In this area if you ground your kid and they complain to the school counselors about it the school will have CPS at your house before the kid gets home from school. My buddies kid failed 3 classes so he grounded him for a month and took his cell phone, computer (all devices). The kid went to school and told the counselors and CPS spent the next 2 weeks doing an investigation. The CPS asshole told my buddy that taking the cell phone and computer was in line with psychological abuse since it cut the kid off from the world.

[Tbeck]

Sgt, hate to tell you this but you do have school choice in NJ just like every other state does. It's not highly publicized but has been presented to the public. Here's how it works;
If your home school, meaning the one associated with your residence is failing on the testing ( they all are) you as the parent can enroll them in any public school of your choice. The student funding will follow your child to whatever school you enroll them in.
So in your situation you could have insisted that your daughter remain in the school she was in because the new school was in failure status. They couldn't refuse, it's the law and they know it.

[Tbeck]

Sgt, I wanted to add something. I mentioned in an earlier posting that the people making the educational law's and policies lack the special knowledge that is particular to public education. THIS is the BIGGEST problem. Since they don't have the specific knowledge they cannot foresee the law which sound reasonable will have a deviating affect on the school environment.
Take for example the drop out law's because it's simple. Kid hates school but can't drop out because the law says he has to be 18 to do so. Outcome is as follows; kid stays in school but disrupts classrooms and requires many trips to the office.
Student doesn't come to school and gets repeatedly taken to court for truancy. Again a major disruption to his classroom as he's in and out so teachers have to catch him up taking time from others. And administration has to deal with the truancy tying them up.
So the law designed to help a couple kids stay in school has a negative impact on every classroom, teacher, and administration. A BETTER solution would be to pass a law which say's if you don't complete school you'll be permanently banned from receiving any social services.

[sgtcall]

Sgt, hate to tell you this but you do have school choice in NJ just like every other state does. It's not highly publicized but has been presented to the public. Here's how it works;
If your home school, meaning the one associated with your residence is failing on the testing ( they all are) you as the parent can enroll them in any public school of your choice. The student funding will follow your child to whatever school you enroll them in.
So in your situation you could have insisted that your daughter remain in the school she was in because the new school was in failure status. They couldn't refuse, it's the law and they know it.

That would have been nice to know.

[sgtcall]

Sgt, I wanted to add something. I mentioned in an earlier posting that the people making the educational law's and policies lack the special knowledge that is particular to public education. THIS is the BIGGEST problem. Since they don't have the specific knowledge they cannot foresee the law which sound reasonable will have a deviating affect on the school environment.
Take for example the drop out law's because it's simple. Kid hates school but can't drop out because the law says he has to be 18 to do so. Outcome is as follows; kid stays in school but disrupts classrooms and requires many trips to the office.
Student doesn't come to school and gets repeatedly taken to court for truancy. Again a major disruption to his classroom as he's in and out so teachers have to catch him up taking time from others. And administration has to deal with the truancy tying them up.
So the law designed to help a couple kids stay in school has a negative impact on every classroom, teacher, and administration. A BETTER solution would be to pass a law which say's if you don't complete school you'll be permanently banned from receiving any social services.

I remember the drop out age when I was in high school was 16, we lost a bunch of kids when we started turning 16. Some were even good students that just wanted out so they got a GED and started college at 17.

Odd story but related. In 1990 I was in college with a 15 year old girl. She lived in the dorms and attended classes. She was just extremely smart and skipped a couple of grades in North Carolina. Her parents, both professors in NC, met at my college in Georgia so they wanted her to go there. Anyway one day she got arrested on campus. Why? Because she was using her grandparents address in Georgia as her home of record so somehow the local police figured out she was under 16 and not enrolled in high school. So the dumb ass cops came to the college and arrested her for not being in school. It only took about 5 minutes at the local department to figure out they fucked up and they brought her back to campus with all needed apologies.

[Herb]

By any metric, this is fricken WRONG!

https://www.theblaze.com/news/az-princi ... ing%20News

An Arizona school principal put together a "confidential" list of students' preferred names and pronouns and emailed it to staff members asking them to withhold the information from the children's families, according to a Fox News report....

[Tbeck]

Herb, a couple thing's here. First if a student wants to be called something other than their legal name, teachers must comply by law. There's a reason I am retiring.
Secondly if a 14 year old student say's they don't want that info shared with the parents, teachers by law must comply.
Failure to comply with the aforementioned results in liability legally, and termination of the teacher.
So while your link suggests that the principal was telling the teachers to hide stuff from the parents, it was really the principal making sure none of his teachers violated the law accidentally to keep them out of trouble.

[sgtcall]

Herb, a couple thing's here. First if a student wants to be called something other than their legal name, teachers must comply by law. There's a reason I am retiring.
Secondly if a 14 year old student say's they don't want that info shared with the parents, teachers by law must comply.
Failure to comply with the aforementioned results in liability legally, and termination of the teacher.
So while your link suggests that the principal was telling the teachers to hide stuff from the parents, it was really the principal making sure none of his teachers violated the law accidentally to keep them out of trouble.

So what you are saying is that if you hold a belief that boys are boys and girls are girls and that this is decided at birth you have no rights.

[Tbeck]

Sgt, no I am saying that regardless of what a teacher thinks or believes with regards to that subject, or how much they believe parents, not school's or politicians decide what's what regarding the parents children, the law says otherwise.
I think you and I likely believe strongly in parental rights and that parents make all decisions when it comes to their children. Unfortunately our elected representation has been slowly and quietly stripping parents of that authority. Unfortunately they use our schools to do so.